Listening for a Change: North Carolina Communities in Transition

An Interview of Esther Cunningham by Kathy Newfont

Southern Oral History Program

Southern Communities Series

Carson, NC

11.16.98

(Kathy Newfont)--

Yes, it is. Okay.

(Esther Cunningham)--

I don't remember exactly.

(Kathy Newfont)--

But you were saying he wanted to-

(Esther Cunningham)--

The Alliance has been organized fifteen years, sixteen, I believe.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Yeah, I guess that's right, '82. But you were saying he wanted to dig. Was that part of the oil and gas drilling? Do you remember?

(Esther Cunningham)--

No, olivine.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Oh, right. You told me about that in the earlier interview you were talking about olivine.

(Esther Cunningham)--

It looks like a green rock. And you may find it on top of the ground and that's how you know it's there. But it may be on down in to the ground in a big rock. And they mined for olivine and they lined kiln-k-i-l-n. Is that right?

(Kathy Newfont)--

Right, uh-huh.

(Esther Cunningham)--

They lined the kiln and then they could put the temperature very, very hot to fire things like stainless silver. And it's very valuable and they need it. Now that's one of the things that I know he was looking for. What else I don't know. I just know he was a geologist who had come into here. And geologists, their job is to go underground and to get things. And we had learned at the workshop at Harrigut, Tennessee and through reading material that when geologists needed to get things, for example, uranium to build the atomic bombs or whatever they needed, that they--. I presume it was part of the training of the geologists to know that if they needed to go into a county and get these things. By things I mean the rights to mine-that they had to go to the county commissioners because county commissioners in every county just have the control of the county. And there's a lot of Forest Service land in Macon County. And so the first thing that they do is to go to the county commissioners. Now we had seen that this guy was hanging out with one of our county commissioners and often having dinner with him-eating out at noon and so forth. And we had observed some-not just me, but other people who had the same concerns that I had. And I guess we just began to observe what it was he was doing and what it was he was wanting. And he was observing me. We were watching him and he was watching us. How's that?

(Kathy Newfont)--

Oh, really? And was that on Forest Service land that he was interested in--?

(Esther Cunningham)--

Umm-hmm.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Uh-huh.

(Esther Cunningham)--

And I told you, I guess when you taped me on the telephone that this geologist--. I think I did. The geologist had called me and asked me if he could come to Carson Community Building when the associate supervisor was coming to Carson Community to do a talk about land that was being leased that belonged to the federal government, public lands. I can't remember the man's last name. But George Olsen was the supervisor of the North Carolina Forest at that time. And this was the man who was his associate, or assistant. And we invited George Olsen but he didn't come. He sent this other man. The Waya district ranger who's right here where we are. And he telephoned me and he said, "I have just heard on the radio your announcement that there will be a meeting at Carson Community Building and the time and date." And he said, "It says that George Olsen-I mean-that this geologist-who was well known in Franklin-this geologist will also speak." "Now," he said, "I'm not having that man come over here and have this geologist speaking, too." Sharing the platform with him. I said, "Whoa. I did not put that on the radio. Apparently he has." And he said, "Well do you want me to cancel the meeting?" And I said, "No, I don't want you to cancel the meeting." He said, "Well, what will you do?" And I said, "I will go straight to the radio station right now and tell them to take that off. Do not put his announcement with mine not today, not ever without permission from me." So I did that exactly what I said I would do and they withdrew it. And the announcement did not come out on the radio. And the associate supervisor from Asheville did come and did make his talk. But the man was there. The geologist was there. And he tried to take over the meeting. But that's the meeting that the county commissioner-a different county commissioner-had told my husband he better be prepared. The geologist will be at your meeting. And my husband said, "Esther will preside. And if she can't handle it, I'll be there to help her. And we will handle it all right." So I let the geologist speak briefly one time. But he wanted to speak more and kept raising his hand. And I knew who he was, but I turned my back on him as though I did not see him. And he said, 'I want to speak. I want to speak." And another prominent lady in the audience said, "But we've already heard from you and we don't want to hear from you anymore." Because she was a prominent lady nobody else said anything. [Laughter] She herself was a leader who was supporting me.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Oh, really?

(Esther Cunningham)--

Uh-huh.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Well that was another thing I was going to ask you about. You-one of the things I'm interested in is how you learned how to be such a leader? And we talked a little bit last time. You were saying that you remember being shy and withdrawn when you were younger. And you told me a story about when you were in kind of the young women's church group and were elected president and were very shy and didn't-weren't sure you were really ready to do that. And that there was a lady that you admired who took you aside and said that you could do it and that she would help you. And I wondered if you could tell me a little bit more about her and about that whole situation.

(Esther Cunningham)--

I think we all depend on other people probably. I told you another story about a lady that I wanted to be the president of the Woman's Society after me. And she said, "I can't do it." And I said, "You can and we'll all help you." And I think that in some way all of us mirror what we see in the faces of others. Particularly in those people that we consider our friends, people that we admire. And this lady who said that to me was-I had just known her almost all of my life. And I thought she was well respected in the town and she was pretty. She always dressed nice. And she was believable. And I think maybe I was that to my friend. And I think that we pass on what we learn. Maybe I had learned it from her although I had not put the two things together. But I had probably learned it from her. And then I passed it on to my friend. I like to believe that. I think that's a good way for us to do.

(Kathy Newfont)--

And what do you think it was that you learned from her-from--?

(Esther Cunningham)--

Well, I just learned-I just felt that she would be there supporting me. And if I stubbed my toe, she would lift me up. She would help me over the rough places and I would be there. And I think, although I didn't actually say it. I think I was projecting that feeling to my friend. At another time I heard this friend say, "We just always let Esther lead and we go ahead and follow her and we believe in her." Now she expressed that to somebody who came to Carson Community meeting. And she was the one that I had insisted that she would be the president after I was the president.

(Kathy Newfont)--

The Woman's Society one?

(Esther Cunningham)--

Uh-huh.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Uh-huh.

(Esther Cunningham)--

And she's the mother of the two daughters that made high school teachers.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Right, right. I remember your telling me about that.

(Esther Cunningham)--

And she had much capability but she didn't see herself as anything but a housewife. And I felt that she had much ability that she simply wasn't using. And I knew that she believed as I did because I'd grown up with her. I just knew her and I that she could do as well as I could. And I needed her. And once I made her believe in herself she would do it. But I think I just reflected to her an image of herself that she probably hadn't seen. And I think that's what the lady did to me in the church, like a mirror, you know. You have to see yourself as a leader before you become a leader, I guess. Don't you think?

(Kathy Newfont)--

Well I don't know. I'm interested in what you think. I'm trying to understand these things. And I think I have a lot to learn from you about this.

(Esther Cunningham)--

Well I know this was a big group at First Methodist Church in Franklin. It was the Guild. And I don't know how many we had as members. But we had a large group of women. They were largely young married women. And each year we would have an annual banquet in the spring. And I would be required to preside at the meeting of all of those women. And I just didn't feel I could do it. And I guess during that time when I had been right in the thick of the depression. And I had concentrated hard on making a success of my job in the beauty shop and supporting two younger sisters and a younger brother. And living that part of my life. There wasn't any time for developing leadership.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Right.

(Esther Cunningham)--

And I think that it probably-I was timid. I was shy. I hadn't had any time to think about developing that. And I just didn't think I could do it. I could do this other. I was confident I could do this other. I was confident I could run a beauty shop by myself, which I did in Cornelia, Georgia when I was eighteen years old, that summer. And there were three girls working in the beauty shop and I managed it and ran it, collected the money. And stayed at the home of the Cannons'. They owned the shop and their daughter had to go to Atlanta and take a beauty course. So they were backing me up all the time. But I ran that beauty shop by myself. But I didn't think I could go out and preside over a group of people. It's different. And you have to-it's transfer learning, I think. When I was taking a reading course at Western Carolina University they said the sign of high intelligence is the ability to memorize, to transfer learning, something else. But it all comes into play. And it depends on the situation you're put in. Don't you see?

(Kathy Newfont)--

So you felt that the Guild was different from the beauty shop.

(Esther Cunningham)--

I never compared it, never compared it, until now, you see.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Do you think-was it-

(Esther Cunningham)--

I think it's survival. That was sort of the end of the Depression. And when I lost both parents: Mama of cancer when I was barely seventeen, Daddy in an automobile accident when I was eighteen and a half. And I was left with a ready-made family, no insurance to help. And if it's a new one in the situation you're going to fight like everything to survive. And that's what I was doing. I was surviving. And I was still surviving up until that time. And to me it was a big deal to run the beauty shop.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Well sure. It's a whole-

(Esther Cunningham)--

And I think-but I would have to check back to be sure-I think I was about nineteen when I opened my own beauty shop on Main Street in Franklin. And I had promised my mother I would see the others through high school and I did. We had cousins that did not get through high school. But I got through, both my sisters got through and my brother got through. And each time I would say, "Mama wanted you to graduate from high school." And they did. Part of it had to be that there was the mental capacity. But the other had to be motivation from somewhere. And that's where the motivation came from. But then when you say, "Why did you believe her and why did you do this?" Can you see the big jump from there on to when I began to develop leadership skills that I didn't know I had? And I guess that the leadership skills first emerged in my church and then they began to emerge in my children's school. Because it wasn't long until I was PTA president. I was actually drafted to go to Family Life. I remember the first meeting outside of Macon County was to a Family Life meeting in Hickory. And I rode a bus by myself. And I'd got somebody to keep my children. But it was a state conference on mental health. And they called it Family Life. And I began to see the need for all the PTAs to get together and have a PTA council. And I organized it and became the first president. Now it didn't happen overnight. It gradually happens. But first and foremost, it was born in me. I'm sure it was just in me. And then second, when I was a little child, my parents always believed that I could do anything. And I lost my parents when I was so young but I did have relatives who still believed I could do anything. Partly because Mama and Daddy believed I could.

(Kathy Newfont)--

And could you talk a little bit about those relatives? Who was there for you when you lost your parents?

(Esther Cunningham)--

I remember an uncle, my Daddy's only sister's husband. And he worked in the bank. And they had a little boy the same age I was. And Mama and Daddy used to line us up together and see which one was taller than the other. And we were just real good friends, this little first cousin. And when I lost both parents and I went to Atlanta to take a beauty course I got a letter from Uncle Walter. And he would say, "Adversity builds character." And he said, "I know life is hard now, but it will get better. Always believe it." And he was instilling good values in me. And because I loved and admired him, I believed him. Then I had two aunts in Franklin and an uncle. And they paid my way, put me on the bus and sent me to Atlanta. I'd never ridden a bus in my life. And I was barely seventeen. And I went alone to my aunt's in Atlanta, and stayed at her home and took the beauty course. Neither one of those aunts had been to Atlanta I don't think and probably not the uncle. But she had ridden-she would take me and she would take me to the beauty school. The beauty school was Five Points in Atlanta. I had to ride the streetcar five miles to get there. I looked at the huge city and it frightened me. But I don't remember ever thinking I can't do it. I guess if other people can do it, I can too. And I think, probably the four and a half years in Gastonia made a difference, although I was not aware of it. But I remember that little tiny aunt who was probably not more than five feet tall and she said, "Now you watch what I do and you will learn. I will ride with you one day to the beauty school." So we got on the streetcar that stopped in front of her house. She took the money, the exact amount, and put it in the slot and told me how. "Are you watching?" "Yes." We rode the streetcar and went to the beauty school. She stayed with me until she got me registered. We rode back home. She said, "You're on your own." Don't you guess that taught me, dare to venture. There's so many things. There's not any one thing. It's just a bundle of a lot of things. I used to have people come to Franklin and say, "You seem different. Why are you different?" I didn't think I was different. I still don't think I was. If I was I don't know why I was. But some of the people that went to beauty school went to beauty school in Franklin. There was a place in Franklin that you could learn to do hair. But I had a first cousin who lived in Hickory who had held my fingers and showed me how to set a finger wave when she visited in my home. My Daddy had two half sisters who were beauticians. So I had the advantage of knowing a little bit there. And I taught myself to give a finger wave from the time I was twelve years old until I was sixteen. And I could do a perfect one when I went to beauty school. I had already learned. Now my parents were there then. And they always said, "Esther can give a finger wave. Esther is special." I think that made a difference. When I hear so much on t. v. that I can't believe that parents would abuse their children like some I hear. I think our parents did not ever abuse us. And I think that made a difference.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Can I ask you another thing about the PTA? You said that you were drafted to go to this Family Life conference. And what do you mean by that, that you were drafted?

(Esther Cunningham)--

I can't remember the sequence, order, how things happened. But I was much involved in the PTA at Carter Jay Elementary School and at Franklin High School. And I think probably that we had already organized Macon County Mental Health Association. Dr. Amelia Bower in Asheville, a psychiatrist, married Dr. Joseph Cohn of Franklin who was a surgeon. And she came to Franklin to live and they have three little sons. Since then she's died, but the sons are still living. And Dr. Joseph Cohn is still living. I knew her. Our kids were friends. She got a group of women together and said, "I want to organize Macon County Mental Health Association. And I want Esther Cunningham to be the chair of the education committee." And I said, "Wait a minute. I do not know anything about mental health, emotional health. This is way over my head. I don't know anything about that." She said, "You understand people. You know how to organize people. You have organized the PTA council and you are the president of the PTA council. I do not want you to educate people. I want you to be the educational chair and help me call meetings. And I will make speeches and be the educator. I will teach what I know." I said, "Okay. I can do that." So I became the first education chair of the Macon County Mental Health Association. Now, I was interested in that just like I'm interested in everything. I don't know a particular reason except that I had an aunt-one of those who helped pay my way. Well she helped me open my beauty shop. She didn't help pay for me to go to my aunt's. But she was there when I got on the bus to go. But that aunt had had some emotional health problems and Dr. Amelia Cohn before she came to Franklin. She was a teacher. She was a brilliant person.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Your aunt was a teacher?

(Esther Cunningham)--

My aunt was, uh-huh. Both those aunts were teachers and my mother was a teacher. And the one aunt in Atlanta had been a teacher, too.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Oh, wow, a lot of teachers in your family.

(Esther Cunningham)--

Well, there were five girls and four of them were teachers. But, yeah, she just-I don't know. I think it's something I'm born with because Dr. Amelia Cohn had not known me before then but she believed in me. You know? And your question was, how did it happen I was drafted. And I don't-maybe I used the wrong word. But I remember-it's been a long time and it's hard to remember-and the people at Carter Jay. And I had been the president up there and worked hard in that PTA. And they said, I guess it was the first of its kind, but I don't know. It was a state mental health-family life they called it, Family Life meeting. And it was going to be at Hickory. And they said, "Well we will pay half of Esther's way to go to Hickory if the Franklin PTA will pay the other half." And I think it was more like being nominated. There wasn't any-they didn't elect. Why they chose me, I don't know. Maybe because I was the president. They said, "We will-if Franklin will." And I said, "Well, you'll have to ask them." "We'll ask them." And they just told the president down there at that PTA that to ask his PTA if they'd pay the other half, that I was a member of both. And the two PTAs paid my way. And I went by myself on the bus to Hickory. And I got to know several people down there and it was not too much longer after that that I got a telephone call. Some more things happened in between which I'm skipping. But I got a telephone call from Maurice Smythe, S-M-Y-T-H-E. And she was in Hendersonville, North Carolina, and she was the secretary of the state PTA board of managers. And she said, "We want you to be the state room representative chairman." And I said, "What do I do?" And she told me. But I accepted and I became the state room representative chairman. Later I was elected to district director for the state PTA organization. Surprised me as much as it did you.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Well, I knew you'd been very involved in the state PTA.

(Esther Cunningham)--

That, as I said, happened some time ago. And in trying to organize Macon County's PTA council--we had one colored school in the county. And I knew those people. I don't know how I knew everybody. But it's a small community. And I think I had a little colored girl that worked at my house and helped me out working in the shop. And so they said, "Yes." They wanted to be a member of the PTA council. So I sent their name in, too. And I got a letter from state PTA president saying-now that's the days of integration. That's when George Wallace stood at the door, you know. And she said, "Our state PTA council isn't integrated and we cannot accept your Macon County PTA council if you are integrated. If you have a colored school in yours." And I said, "The law has already been passed. And when a baby learns to walk you don't pick it up out of the floor and set it back in the crib and say, 'No, you're doing it too soon, go back in your crib and stay until you're old enough to walk." I said, "You let it walk." And I said "If it means we cannot be a member of the state PTA board of directors, member of the state PTA I guess is what they called it. If we can't be that then we accept it. But we think you're wrong." And right after that I got a telephone call wanting me to be on the state PTA board of managers.

(Kathy Newfont)--

When was this? Do you remember at all just vaguely-

(Esther Cunningham)--

The year?

(Kathy Newfont)--

Yeah. About the year, just even roughly.

(Esther Cunningham)--

No, but it was. I don't know. I can't give you the year. But it was right after that that-I guess we'd have to go back and look it up and see.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Okay.

(Esther Cunningham)--

Mrs. Godwin was the president. And with the PTA-officers, you know. The year that she was there because it was--. Her name is Godwin, but I can't remember-G-O-D-W-I-N. And I think that's the one I got the letter from and I'm sure I have her letter here somewhere. But I don't know where it is. But as far as I know, Macon County's PTA council was the first in the state to be integrated.

(Kathy Newfont)--

That's really fascinating stuff.

(Esther Cunningham)--

Well, I have a very good friend. She was Sally Fespersman. I remember going over to her house. She and I had worked together at PTA up here. And I said, "Sally, what am I going to do? Here's the state leader in this organization telling me that we can't be a member down there, our PTA council can't be a member because we have little Chapel School down here." She said, "Esther, you've got a big decision to make." She said, "I guess it's your cup of tea and you have to drink it." And I said, "Well pray for me Sally and I'll go home and pray for myself." And she said, "Okay." So I came on home, and I sat down and I wrote that letter. And then I went about my work and gave it no more thought. And I got the letter and they said, "We've had a vote on you and we want you in our-on our PTA board of managers." That was right when segregation was going on. I'm sure that it had to be. Let me see. Jimmy was born in '51. And I had refused to be president of any PTA while he was real little like your baby. So I think it would have to be probably maybe the late fifties. I don't know. Kennedy was assassinated June of '63. And it was before that.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Do you remember how old the girls were at that time? Were you involved in the high school PTA then?

(Esther Cunningham)--

That's right. That's right. The high school PTA and-it's hard to think of anything that-

(Kathy Newfont)--

Well we can figure it out. Like I said, I'm not concerned about-

(Esther Cunningham)--

Find out when Mrs. Godwin was. That's when it was. Leslie Barker was another lady that was real active and she might have been the PTA president after that. If you find Leslie Barker, L-E-S-L-I-E, Barker, her name there. She was not the president. It was before then.

(Kathy Newfont)--

So now you-then did the council become part of the state PTA anyway even though they said you weren't going to?

(Esther Cunningham)--

I can't remember the follow-up on that. I just don't remember any more controversy over it. They accepted it as far as I know. There was no controversy. I was amazed. You know, I saw myself--. North Carolina has over a hundred counties. And Macon County is very rural, the extreme western part of the state. I have gone to meetings in Raleigh when they didn't know Macon County existed we were so far away. They thought that the state ended in Nashville. And I have been there and told them. I remember an argument one time and they said, "Well, we thought you people up there thought you belonged to Georgia or South Carolina." I said, "We know where we belong. It's you people down here don't know where we belong." [Laughter] I think part of it is-well, maybe I've got a big mouth. I'm still trying to get back to that first question you asked me.

(Kathy Newfont)--

Well, it doesn't matter. We've come a long way from there. But I'm glad to have come this way. So, when you first were organizing this council how did you decide to even approach the black school about whether they wanted to be part of it?

(Esther Cunningham)--

You know, it was so much a part of my life that I don't remember ever giving it a second thought.

(Kathy Newfont)--

You just thought-

(Esther Cunningham)--

The black school is at the edge of this community. And those people live near to me. And they were my friends. They would help me if I needed help, you know. And it's where the board of education is now. When you go out that was where little Chapel School was. And I knew the teachers. And I don't know how, I just did. But I don't know if I asked one of the teachers or the principal or who I asked if they wanted to. I tell you somebody down there at one time or another called me. I had a beauty shop in my home, you know--I told you that. And Nell Jones, whose husband owned the Franklin Press--and she was the piano teacher and taught Brenda piano at her home. And she also taught a little black lady whose-this little black lady's husband was a preacher. And he was the principal of the little colored school, Chapel. And Mrs. Jones liked the little lady. And I remember one time writing a letter to the editor. And the man called me up and he complimented me on the letter and said he agreed with it. And I guess he was the one. Somebody called me and invited me to come to Chapel School PTA and give a program, make a talk. And he told me what he wanted me to talk about but I don't remember. I think he was the one--and the principal. So I asked Nell Jones. And I said, "Will you go with me to the Chapel School?" And she said, "Sure." So she and I went down, and made our speech and ate cookies and punch with them and came home. See, I'm already a friend. It was no problem. I just knew several of them. That's the way it ought to be. But that's the way it was with us and it wasn't any problem. And I don't remember ever telling them at our PTA-our PTA council. The meetings were held at the Franklin High School library. And the principals and the teachers-representatives, whoever they were-would come from the whole county, Natahalla, Highlands, the whole county. And to get them together to start to organize them, I just go on the telephone, and called them and told them to come and they did. I don't know. Don't you guess it's being a little assertive? Maybe I was assertive. [Laughter] Maybe I just wasn't smart enough to know that I wasn't supposed to do it. END OF INTERVIEW